Peer Effect
Best way to scale? Your peers have the answers.
This is the podcast for scaleup founders looking for insightful, actionable wisdom from some of the best operators around. Each week we’ll explore one secret that other founders and experts are using right now and how to implement it.
It’s practical wisdom to build the company AND life you want. Hosted by renowned founder coach and advisor James Johnson.
You’ve survived to £1m, now let’s scale to £10m+.
Peer Effect
The Power Of Letting Go - with Julie Perkins of Wyseminds
Julie is the Founder of Wyseminds, a company that supports early-stage female founders. With a wealth of experience from her previous role, running Specsavers across Northern Europe, Julie is no stranger to business challenges.
Today she takes us back to 2008.
At the time, she led her company through the Great Recession and spearheaded a business expansion into uncharted territory.
Yet, it was during these testing times that she discovered a profound truth – the power of letting go.
Julie reflects on how the pressure of high expectations, personal attachment to the business, and the need to create space to think and feel.
In this episode we discuss,
- The underestimated power of personal support for founders
- How creating space can lead to performance breakthrough
- The unspoken commitment and honesty difficult processes can demand
Tune in to this dynamic episode and be inspired by Julie’s resilience and lessons learned at the helm of Specsavers across Northern Europe.
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Connect with James on LinkedIn or at peer-effect.com
So I'm delighted to welcome to the show's Dave Duhle. She's the founder of Wise Minds, which supports early stage female founders, and before that she ran SpexSavers across Northern Europe. So lots of stories to tell.
Speaker 2:Lots of stories to tell James, and a massive thank you for having me today. I look forward to this conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too. So we're going to jump into my coaching time machine and we're going to go back into the past. When are we going back to?
Speaker 2:Well, I have to go straight into the Great Recession of 2008 and 2009 for those juicy stories for sure.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go back there and I think we were four or five years into growing the brand and the Netherlands, and I think it was that moment which obviously not only was there a recession, but we were with a new brand in a new country and, of course, it had this incredible success in the UK and the expectation I think was very similar in the Netherlands and there I was three to four years into it, hands in the air, sat in my garden at 3am as if I was pulling into the universe what more can I do?
Speaker 2:And everything was right on paper, but it was really chugging and you found yourself in a situation where you were growing but actually the business wasn't following and deep down, like, as we know, a recession is an opportunity, especially for an incredible value brand like SpexSaver. So you couldn't even blame the recession. So there was definitely blocks in there and there was just that point of frustration where there's nothing more you can throw at it in yourself. You can't put your finger on it. The people there that are amazing. You feel that you are working every hour that is sent to you and you actually are and everything is there, but yeah, it's just not moving.
Speaker 1:So okay, so you've got a great brand of SpexSaver. It's becoming a dominant force in the UK. You've been tasked with leading the growth out in the Netherlands. It's your first external market, your three to four years in and kind of these high expectations which you and you feel like you're throwing everything. You are throwing everything at it, like you couldn't be working more hours, you couldn't be on a team. It's just not happening. Is that right?
Speaker 2:That's exactly it, and you know, the pressure on yourself, on people, on the thought of this is where it was supposed to begin. It's an incredible journey out of this incredible market leadership position of the UK and there you were, sitting there holding something where you couldn't help but blame yourself and wondering what to do.
Speaker 2:And that's at the point, I think, where I answered or asked sorry, different questions and I think you know that journey of learning and I shared it with the team about this sort of moment of 3am and one of them and we're still friends to get today said to me do you still love what you do and do what you love? And I thought, look what I've got the burden on my shoulders that I have. Is this a moment for you know, or do you start hugging a tree, you know? Thank you, but really, what he was saying was the most important question that I answered over those following months, which is it's not about doing what I love and what I do, but it's.
Speaker 2:Have I let go and is it time to make myself redundant from that position? And that's why I say it's easier than it really seems easier to get yourself in that position because you are working, you are very blinkered, you are so determined and you're you're running all the time trying to create this incredible success and you are somehow ignoring some of the key signs and that, actually, if you see growth in a series of waves which is what it is, especially in early stage startup, it was doing, the company was doing exactly what it should have been doing. It's just that, rather than making myself redundant on each wave and getting on the next, I literally was holding on to every single wave you could possibly think of and and actually losing the golden thread completely. But it was really the greatest learning of my life working life of course.
Speaker 1:And just so listeners can come with you on the journey. So there was this kind of professional pressure in terms of why can't I achieve what I want to achieve, but you say you're holding on tight this. This was also like a family business as well, so there was a there's a lot of emotional attachment as well.
Speaker 2:Without a doubt. I mean, not only was it the first territory, it was a family business, although joint venture owned. So it's actually owned by the partners of the store which I had, 70 stores opened with people that put their homes up into it. So every spec says stores run as owned by the partner itself. So not only was the family pressure, but also the pressure from I've got you to commit to this incredible concept. How do I make it incredible for you? How do we do that for you? And so there was, you know, in terms of partnership. There's incredible power and strength to it in terms of the customers, respect to them, of course.
Speaker 2:But the responsibility that I had towards an only family, but myself to the team was to be 90 sets of partners. I said this is, you know, going to change your life as well as your customers, as well as your families. That's a big responsibility to have. So you want to make everything happen as well as you can and to live it. I mean, you know I'd grown up with the concept. I knew the concept, you know, and in fact that in itself can be considered a big challenge because by knowing it so well, how do I become it? And was there space for others?
Speaker 1:So it sounds like this, this concept, like you knew this concept really well. There was a game plan that had worked. Like under pressure, you reverted to instinctive responses of working harder, going faster, self-sacrifice, throwing yourself into it and almost it became less and less easy to create space just to even think, to see, to feel.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, it's like you were there, james, it's exactly what it was, and I think the more you get into it, the more that you get into measuring the moment, measuring the sales, measuring the performance and really holding tight to those around you. They become your family very quickly and in a way, you become an island, because anybody who's not in the island, anybody who's not working that hard or driving that moment, they will never understand how hard we are working. But of course they do.
Speaker 2:But you say no, they don't. So you become more of an isolated island and but your needs are very strong your learnings of what it's like to be in a new territory. You're trying to survive by yourself and you know that that drive to try and keep your team motivated, as well as the partners, is literally taking 90% of your life. That's very key. And then you start to lose the space between you, company and everything and ultimately, have you become the purpose? Have you, as a person, become the purpose of the organization?
Speaker 1:So it sounds like, then. It's kind of sense of more and more pressure, more and more speed, but also the sense of identity, your identity merging with the company, and it's kind of creating this sort of isolated bubble which which you lived in and it took your colleagues question which is do you still love what you do? To have this kind of moment of epiphany. It sounds like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I think it's a very important question to ask all of the time. I don't know that at the time, because you kid yourself. You're still loving it. But what are you loving? Success, the hope of success, the dream, the sort of trophy that someone's going to give you one day? I don't know, but you do.
Speaker 2:You love something and you kid yourself, but it's only when somebody really asks the pinnacle question are you still doing what you love and what you do? And it doesn't mean for the moment, because we all know that entrepreneurial life is like a rollercoaster. So if we gave up our companies every time we had a bad day or we just felt I really don't like my company anymore, we wouldn't get past day six. But it's that continual flow, that reflective question, and the answer was in fact no. Do I still love the company? Do I still love the people? Yes and more. We're still friends to this day. Of course that was all getting mixed up, because we were one sort of big sort of there's a bamboo bush, of everything. So of course I love them, which we must look for the fact. I love the journey, but we were very loyal to each other and that can be very mistaken for the love of what you do.
Speaker 2:The fact is that when I started to reflect on that question, I had to ask, obviously, why what I did love what I didn't, where I was. And it was the fact that I did actually have to make myself redundant. And it's exactly what I did. I mean, don't go wrong, I'm no angel, I didn't go. Oh, very good question. Thank you for asking, I'll get on to it. For tall, I think we've probably established that would never have happened. There was this beautiful sort of six months that we spent where I really did establish where do I want to be, where is best at this time for me, and how do we structure, how do we bring everybody in up with that so that we all could grow with it. And that was the year we became in a margolite position and we didn't realize it was happening.
Speaker 2:But we, just when we went back, we were like, oh my goodness, that's great, and we closed our stores for a couple of days each, each one of them. We looked at the purpose how was it created, what was it for, etc. Etc. And reeducated everybody on the purpose and the difference we wanted to make. And all of these record sales weeks, that was all out the window. Our united force was on one purpose and that was the likelihood of somebody to return in two years time. No record sales, no, nothing. And we had this beautiful team. Everybody rose, people in the stores, the partners, and I remember having a party that year, which is quite unusual when you're sort of in a chugging recession position.
Speaker 2:It was questions a little, it was about coming together 8000 people and I remember looking over the balcony and I said to Hanny, who was the learning and development person, who actually was the person who asked me the question with Peter, I said look everyone, just it feels right. You know, it's like the stars are all aligned. And she turned around and said because we put them there and it was absolutely right, and how you have to make yourself redundant, which sounds so harsh, but when you look at it as a founder, you have to keep moving. My parents were very good at it and I look back at it now and hindsight and I go hold what you did and I just go. You were brilliant at it, you know, but that's a lesson learned because I undid it.
Speaker 1:I suppose it was really strong like mental image of founders moving fast but taking up a little oxygen. Founders burn quite bright and I think with that comes using a little oxygen. I think it sounds like almost staying in place and working hard and hard. Honestly, it's like spinning your wheels slightly, but just really taking up the oxygen that are allowing other people to thrive. And as you then started moving forward, clarified your personal vision, help the company, clarify there is really focused on your strengths. You kind of just opened up this space and just released oxygen for everyone else to breathe while you moved on to the next phase. How does that feel?
Speaker 2:I think it's a really good analogy and I think that's what it is. I think you're sharing the oxygen and when you're first starting up a company, as we all know, it's pretty ugly and no one likes it. So, as a founder, you're going around begging people to join. You know ugly, baby, and all this stuff and it requires a lot of oxygen because you're shouting loud, you're shouting clear, you're driving and I think once you could reposition that voice, you're right. It's. It gives people that chance to breathe and very, very strong people that chance to be the best they could be, because I think a founder's fear is of letting go, that they'll lose it. But it's not about delegating. People always used to say to me delegate, you need to delegate and go. It's not about delegating. It's about having a shared purpose, that you trust those people that can be the best that they can be towards that shared purpose and once you get that trust, it's not about delegating. It's about giving people the space to do the roles. That's very, very different.
Speaker 1:What was? Was there a moment in this where you went? Yes, this is, I have made this change. Was it on the balcony, looking at down at this event, that you're like we've done it, I've done it, I've I've stepped back?
Speaker 2:I really, really think it really was that moment and that's why I always quote it. I mean, don't get me wrong, I still won the fancy dress competition at the party, but other than that I take it as a joke. But it was that whole beautiful moment where everyone's at the party, everybody's free. So the fact that people took the time after the store shut and if you've ever worked a good nine, ten hour shift in a store on your feet a little bit that's tiring, you know. It doesn't matter how used to you are to actually make that effort to come as a team to choose their outfits, to to be there till 1am to be together. You can't ask more than that. A thousand people taking that time, and it could be with their families, to come and celebrate that moment, and I think that was alignment. For me, that was, that was alignment. And and then you start to get space to make it matter.
Speaker 1:So these are two quite powerful moments in terms of one 3m in the garden like, oh, head, head in submersion to business, identities become one, can't work out, like, couldn't be working any harder. And then there's moments of six months later where you're sort of on this balcony. Other than this realization, what personal support did you have on that journey? Because it sounds like this was a lot of time by your journey, taking yourself out of business.
Speaker 2:I have had a coach in my life for as long as I can remember. I think that's a very important part for a founder. I actually, when people say I'll go, oh, you haven't got a coach, I actually think, oh, okay but you know, I'm a certain level.
Speaker 2:I did expect savers to provide that as well. So I just think that you have to have that external check, you have to have that ability to be able to go. This is the problem. Do you see? How can I see this differently?
Speaker 2:You have to have that second pair of eyes, especially in a fast moving place, and one of the challenges is that when you go into survival mode which, quite frankly, most founders are you know you are in survival mode in those early stages the stakeholders that sit around you. You forget how important they are. And you know, what I try and I'm sure you've got to do as well, is make a list of all the stakeholders that you have, and I think that's something I did afterwards is what's the stakeholder, what's the role that they're playing and how can they support you? Because your survival has to come from many different levels and when you're in survival mode, you literally are anyone you can't touch, feel or be. You know how. Why are you important?
Speaker 2:One for giving you funds, of course, investor, but also family, friends and knowing where it's at. You have to renegotiate that position, and I couldn't because I was in it, but once I was free, I could say this is how it is, this is what's expecting, this is what we're going to do. Just have us that look. Whereas before, every time we're like, oh, how's it going? Why are you asking? You know, I wasn't obviously that bad.
Speaker 2:But that's that reaction and actually when you have that space, you start opening up to the people that can support you.
Speaker 1:I think that's a really, really nice thought, like there's actually more support available to founders from our existing networks and we realize we're just maybe not in the right head space to accept.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely. And you have to have space. In order to have space, you have to stop protecting and once you let go, then create that space. You're accessing people that have always been there, but I don't on a quarterly basis now, and everything just. We have my life. Where am I stuck? Come off, go on, go off, go on. It's a much healthier way of living.
Speaker 1:It is because you, because I found the responses to work hard, as we talked about earlier, which actually drives you deeper and deeper and isolates you further and further.
Speaker 1:Sounds like a weird example, but one of the things I've noticed since having a young child so I'll take my son as coming up to two years old was he's got a miniature dachshund.
Speaker 1:Walking around the streets with a miniature dachshund and a baby means I see a lot of smiles when people first see me, and that is different. Let's say, when I was 30, I remember myself you tend to get more blank expressions because you are seen as more threatening or like it's a thing. You are not threat, you are just serious, like walking around the small dog and small baby, you are a source of joy and therefore you see, your first thing you see is smiles and therefore I respond to you differently, because if I see them smiling at me, all will not respond to me. They're smiling at Artie and Dexy, but I think that's quite like how we, as a founder, when we're in defensive mode. It's kind of we trigger a reaction just by being how we are and therefore it starts again, reinforces it. Oh, they're judging me or they don't think I'm right, and actually that's not what's going on, it's pure projection.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. We get so caught up in capabilities level that actually become fairly unapproachable in terms of values and who we are and the identity, because we're sort of not approachable. And yeah, that's a good point, I should have carried a little puppy around with me and made it smile. You know, in terms of that, I should have done that more, you're right. But it is very true, because it's a warmer picture and I think maybe when we have that network, it's our equivalent in the office, when you're sort of laughing with people by machine and you're approachable. It's a bit like going around the dash and the child it's, you know, it's like, oh, it's, it's the warmth, it's the connection, it's the bridge and that's what everyone's looking for, especially in today's age where people are deciding whether they work, whether they're linking in. Yeah, they're looking towards the founder, you know, do you think I could ask you a question? You know, are you that person?
Speaker 1:I think the great thing about this story Judy, thank you for sharing is that a lot of times, the thing that going faster is the answer, but really what? What the story shows is this epiphany of when you couldn't have gone any faster as taking that step back and creating a space for your team going slower being very purposeful. Actually, that was what led to the breakthrough on performance, and so it's not a go faster to achieve more. It is actually like go slower and do less, sometimes to achieve more.
Speaker 2:I think it's exactly that and it was the time of it. You know, when you're at the beginning, as I said, you have to sometimes hold on tight because you are literally driving, but at this one point, what time is it to let go, reposition and, as you say, do less. And once you start riding off your purpose and leaning towards that in a way, you're doing less, especially speed wise we have to stop style and literally. I sure don't know if anyone knew that we closed every single stalk two days. Look at me still feeling guilty after 20 years. I'm doing this, but we did so. You know what's that? That whole commitment and the honesty with each other about what we joined, what it means, and people are looking to put their values into something that they believe, and I think that's what we did over that six month period that made that incredible difference.
Speaker 1:Audrey, thank you so much for sharing the story. It sounds very cathartic to find out one that you've shut the stores for two days, but really appreciate your honesty and authenticity today.
Speaker 2:Thank you very, very much for having me, james, and then hopefully we'll stay in touch.
